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Most Top 10 list don't include the Klitschko brothers. However, if you look at their abilities and accomplishments, I think they do belong in the Top 10. They push out beloved champions but that's the way it is.
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Before the Klitschko brothers made waves in the division, my list of Top 12 was as follows. I realize that it's difficult to list current champions because we don't know what the rest of their careers will be like. Vitali's career is over and Wladimir isn't far behind. With his brother gone, I don't see Wladimir sticking around too long.
A
1 Muhammad ALI
2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
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B
5. George Foreman
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Sonny Liston
8. Mike Tyson
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C
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Jack Johnson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Jack Dempsey
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I list the champions according to how I believe they would fair In The Ring against each others. My list isn't based on historical significance. If it was, Marciano and Dempsey would be ranked higher, maybe 3 & 4, behind ALI and Louis.
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The reason I separate the Top 12 in groups is because I believe that the fighters in group A could lose to each other on a given night. ALI would lose fewer fights and Lewis would lose more, in a series of fights.
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The same holds true for Group B. On a given night, any champion could lose to the other. However, it is likely that all the champions in Group B would lose to each of the champions to Group A. On a given night, a Group B champion could beat a Group A champion but it is not likely.
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The same holds true for Group C, in reference to Group B and A. A group C champion could beat a Group A champion but it's less likely that it would happen.
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I realize that Marciano and Frazier hold wins over Louis and ALI but both Group C fighters were at their respective best against the Group A champions who were less than their best when they faced the Group C champions.
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To exclude the Klitschko brothers from this list of Top 12 would be unrealistic. I think both Vitali and Wladimir would beat all the champions in Group C. They would have a tougher task against the champions in Group B. Foreman, Liston and Tyson could end the fight at a given moment, especially against Wladimir.
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The thing that keeps Wladimir from advancing higher is the strong likelihood that he could be stopped by one of the power hitters on the list. Wladimir lost three times. Two of them were brutal stoppages. Foreman, Tyson, Liston and Lewis are all worlds better than the men who stopped Wladimir.
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Vitali is a bit harder to beat by KO but might not be as difficult to beat on points.
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Ultimately, I think both will land in the Top 12. Vitali suffers fewer losses but Wladimir has a better chance against the champions in Group A.
Final list
ALI
Louis
Holmes
Lewis
Foreman
Holyfield
Vitali
Liston
Tyson
Wladimir
Johnson
Frazier
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The inclusion of Vitali and Wladimir changes things in the original Top 12. Marciano and Frazier are reversed because Frazier would stand a better chance against the Ukrainian giants than would Marciano. It's possible that Liston and Holyfield would also switch places for the same reason.
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Either way, both Klitschko brothers belong in the Top 12.
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Lewis / Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Marciano
6. Tyson
7. Frazier
8. Liston
9. Holyfield/ Bowe
10. Vitali / Dempsey
The best fighters Vitali Klitschko ever beat were Chris Arreola and Tomasz Admek and you're going to rank him as the Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time on a "realistic" list.
From a skill and accomplishment perspective you can't argue much against the Kltischko Brothers. When ranking fighters you have to take into account skill, accomplishments, era, and resume. With that being said I can't ignore the fact that the Vitali never beat any great heavyweight…not one.
Its no Vitali's fault that the Heavyweight division didn't produce enough decent Heavyweights of his era but I'm not going to ignore the elephant in the room. You can't over look the fact that every fighter on that list fought better fighters than the guy you have ranked number one.
*EDIT*
Vitali Klitschko was up by two points on the judges score cards before GETTING TKO'D BY LENNOX LEWIS. You can't just magically reverse at TKO loss into a some alternate ending were Kiltscko wins by knockout, that never happened. The judges had Kltiscko up by two points, thats by no means domination. Lennox didn't stop him because he wasn't hitting him, he stopped him because he was hammering his face.
Damn so you have 2 brothers as better boxers than anyone in the history of a sport that has existed since the Roman times...
Aren't we lucky LOL
But let's get serious; styles make fights. Example? Maidana got destroyed at 140lbs yet he recently handled the best 147-154lbs fighter in the last decade.
The Klitschko's have beat many good fighters but they have also struggled with some shitty fighters.
Then you take into consideration changed in glove size, rules, popularity of the sport [which entails talent pool] among other things, and you come to the conclusion that it is impossible to know which fighter would beat which fighter unless said fighters FIGHT & when you consider past fighters; that's not happening.
We can only correctly judge fighters by ACCOMPLISHMENTS.
Vitali should not be in a top 10, maybe not even a top 30.
1. Joe Louis(Was champ for 12 years!)
2. Joe Frazier(He beat Ali twice! The thrilla in Manila belongs to Joe!!! And Joe was blind on one eye!!!!)
3. Rocky Marciano(Unbeatable, only unbeaten HW champ ever)
4. Muhammad Ali(rates lower, because he beat only a washed up Liston in two fake fights and a Cleveland Williams post-shooting and bad fighters during his prime!)
5. Larry Holmes
6. Sonny Liston
7. Mike Tyson
8. George Foreman
9. Evander Holyfield
10. Jack Dempsey
I guess without a definition of the word "greatness" an all time great list can include anyone you want to put on in, but in truth your list isn't even remotely close, half of those you listed aren't even close to the ten best historical heavyweights of all time. In truth the ten best opponents of Muhammad Ali would easily have humiliated both Klitschko brothers, they have no business being in the discussion. Mike Tyson is even worse than the Klitschko's and doesn't even make the top 25 best heavyweights in history. Lennox Lewis beat Vitali and Mike convincingly and is in every respect a great fighter and a great guy. I have met Lennox and we sat through a Thomas Hearns card in Detroit that featured Hector Camacho Sr. as the co main event, I like Lennox as a person and a boxer, and he doesn't make the top ten historically best all time great heavyweight list.
I seriously doubt you will appreciate what I am about to write, clearly we define "greatness" differently, but I will try anyway. Here is a list of opponents that Muhammad Ali fought.
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Sonny Liston
Kenny Norton
Archie Moore
George Chuvalo
Earnie Shavers
Gerry Quarry
Floyd Patterson
Cleveland Williams
Bob Foster
Ernie Terrell
Jimmy Young
Oscar Bonavena
The Truth is any of these fifteen men would have dominated today's heavyweight boxing scene and are all better than either Klitschko. Nobody in heavyweight history faced and beat more all time great fighters than Ali. But his great resume aside, his historical and political impact outside the ring is what sets him above every other heavyweight in history.
Only Joe Louis and Jack Johnson come close, with Joe Louis a head and shoulders above everyone save Ali due to his victory in the rematch with Max Schmeling. An American Buck Sargent KOing a Nazi Paratrooper on the brink of WWII might very well be the biggest sporting event in the history of sports let alone boxing, and Louis;s political impact outside of boxing elevates Joe to 2nd place on any all time great list.
Jack Johnson gets 3rd place for his political impact outside the ring as well. Being the first Black Heavyweight champion in a racially segregated bigotry dominated American turn of the century, it caused race riots when Jack fought. He was a one man civil rights movement and was the first champion to use the heavyweight championship as a political platform.
George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey and Sonny Liston are so historically dominant there is no comparison between them and half your list. That leaves one more name to complete the top ten all time great heavyweight list.
You would have to argue that the Klitschko's were better than Gene Tunney, James J. Jefferies, Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Floyd Patterson, Riddick Bowe when it is obvious that they were not better than these guys. I don't even think they could have handled Ingomar Johansson, David Tua, Ike Ibeabuchi, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer or even Michael Moorer.
This doesn't even take into account black listed greats like Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey or Harry Wills, all of whom would have dominated today's heavyweights. Little guys who won heavyweight championships like Bob Fitzsimmons, Roy Jones Jr. and James Toney deserve mention. The two Cuban greats Tefalio Stevenson and Felix Savon who never had a chance to go pro due to politics deserve mention in the discussion if not consideration, Honestly I think Stevenson would have destroyed both Klitschkos, and Savon would have been even money to do the same.
When all is said and done, lets face it, the best you can say historically about Vital and Wlad is that they were both better then Mike Tyson....which really isn't saying much because every fighter I listed above was better than Mike Tyson.
I don't believe that your choice as the top three best heavyweights ever lost to guys like Chris Byrd, Lamont Brewster, Ross Purity, Hashim Rahman and Oliver McCall guys who are not even worthy of carrying Larry Holmes' jackstraps!
Demystifying my balls!
I'll just second Blogbaba.....what he said. .
There are top 10 lists for everyone, all are wistful romantic past, but..here is a realistic list, if you have any more realistic I ask that the record
List of anti-romantic and demystifying heavyweights is right?
1? Vitali Klitschko
Vladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Muhammad Ali
Riddick Bowe
George Foreman
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
